charger failure/VW policy failure

[kirby]

However, I'm still somewhat surprised about not using long extension cords. I understand that there are liability issues, and a lot of that comes down to using the right cord, where you have it, and if you're using it as a permanent solution.

It all comes from the same worry, heating up the extension cord. The dealer and manufacturer needs to be cautious because people will here what they want to hear and not choose the right cord carefully. Length, gauge, and current all affect the heat produced. In general you can trade off one or two for the others. There are charts in various places that give you an idea on the limits. If I were doing this, I would plan it like this.
- 120V, 15A for the OEM EVSE
- Depending on the 12 AWG extension cord is technically good to about 100 feet. But, less length is better and thicker gauge is better.

Just to error on the side of caution, I'd probably try to find a 50 foot, 10 AWG or 12 AWG cord. Many people have successfully run 1600W loads connected to generators over 50-100ft of 10 extension cords for a long time. If you do this, don't follow my advice, make do the research and make your own decision.

 

[JoulesThief]

However, I'm still somewhat surprised about not using long extension cords. I understand that there are liability issues, and a lot of that comes down to using the right cord, where you have it, and if you're using it as a permanent solution.

It all comes from the same worry, heating up the extension cord. The dealer and manufacturer needs to be cautious because people will here what they want to hear and not choose the right cord carefully. Length, gauge, and current all affect the heat produced. In general you can trade off one or two for the others. There are charts in various places that give you an idea on the limits. If I were doing this, I would plan it like this.
- 120V, 15A for the OEM EVSE
- Depending on the 12 AWG extension cord is technically good to about 100 feet. But, less length is better and thicker gauge is better.

Just to error on the side of caution, I'd probably try to find a 50 foot, 10 AWG or 12 AWG cord. Many people have successfully run 1600W loads connected to generators over 50-100ft of 10 extension cords for a long time. If you do this, don't follow my advice, make do the research and make your own decision.

Cheap chinese extension cords cheat on the gauge of wire, or is it even copper, vs aluminum, running thinner gauge wire to save on cost. Buyer beware, I'd not run more than 50 feet of 10 gauge wire, if I ran an extension at all.

Better to run a level 2 charger, have the company provide it, wired professionally by an electrical contractor. I bought a 25 ft 14-50 NEMA RV extension the other day, male and female plugs, quick pull. About $117 delivered. For those RV park trips, where you provide your own EVSE unit.

 

[REM]

However, I'm still somewhat surprised about not using long extension cords. I understand that there are liability issues, and a lot of that comes down to using the right cord, where you have it, and if you're using it as a permanent solution.

It all comes from the same worry, heating up the extension cord. The dealer and manufacturer needs to be cautious because people will here what they want to hear and not choose the right cord carefully. Length, gauge, and current all affect the heat produced. In general you can trade off one or two for the others. There are charts in various places that give you an idea on the limits. If I were doing this, I would plan it like this.
- 120V, 15A for the OEM EVSE
- Depending on the 12 AWG extension cord is technically good to about 100 feet. But, less length is better and thicker gauge is better.

Just to error on the side of caution, I'd probably try to find a 50 foot, 10 AWG or 12 AWG cord. Many people have successfully run 1600W loads connected to generators over 50-100ft of 10 extension cords for a long time. If you do this, don't follow my advice, make do the research and make your own decision.

Cheap chinese extension cords cheat on the gauge of wire, or is it even copper, vs aluminum, running thinner gauge wire to save on cost. Buyer beware, I'd not run more than 50 feet of 10 gauge wire, if I ran an extension at all.

Better to run a level 2 charger, have the company provide it, wired professionally by an electrical contractor. I bought a 25 ft 14-50 NEMA RV extension the other day, male and female plugs, quick pull. About $117 delivered. For those RV park trips, where you provide your own EVSE unit.

I agree that I would run electrical properly instead of using an extension cord. I used a 10 gauge with my Leaf in emergency situations (a couple times) only.

 

[kenward]

You guys clearly get it. Owners need to understand a little bit of electrical theory, then they can make an informed decision. What some people think is "safe" may not meet another persons definition of "safe". VW has a very strict definition of "safe".

I just try to think it through and make a decision that balances my risk tolerance against my potential reward.

 

[JoulesThief]

You guys clearly get it. Owners need to understand a little bit of electrical theory, then they can make an informed decision. What some people think is "safe" may not meet another persons definition of "safe". VW has a very strict definition of "safe".

I just try to think it through and make a decision that balances my risk tolerance against my potential reward.

As BEV's make up a larger portion of new car sales, the infrastructure with level 2's and level 3 chargers will catch up and become more common... pay to charge, hopefully at a reasonable price. This might negate the need for the cheap level 1 that comes with the car.

What I would love to see in the future is a 30 kwh traction battery with a 10.3kw charger on board that will take a full level 2 40 amps at 240V.

 

[miimura]

As BEV's make up a larger portion of new car sales, the infrastructure with level 2's and level 3 chargers will catch up and become more common... pay to charge, hopefully at a reasonable price. This might negate the need for the cheap level 1 that comes with the car.

What I would love to see in the future is a 30 kwh traction battery with a 10.3kw charger on board that will take a full level 2 40 amps at 240V.

Clearly, public infrastructure will continue to develop as the population of EVs grows. However, I think it will take a really long time for automakers to include anything but a 120V 12A charge cord with the car. This is THE ubiquitous outlet type in North America and they need to include some way to charge the car. The only other logical choice for an included EVSE is something like the TurboCord Dual, which allows both 120V 12A (NEMA 5-15) and 240V 16A (NEMA 6-20) charging.

As the population of EVs grows, I don't think you will see on-board chargers gaining capacity. If anything, I think you will see a trend toward more DC charging and less AC charging. The Tesla Model X is already starting this trend with 48 or 72A charging instead of 40 or 80A on the Model S. A 7.2kW on-board charger like the one in the e-Golf can replace almost 50kWh of battery charge overnight in 8 hours. If you need to turn around for another trip faster, then you just go out to a DC Fast Charger. I also don't think you will see any more new EVs introduced that lack DC charging. The ones without it are pretty much all compliance cars for which the maker couldn't be bothered to develop the fast charge implementation.

 

[JoulesThief]

As BEV's make up a larger portion of new car sales, the infrastructure with level 2's and level 3 chargers will catch up and become more common... pay to charge, hopefully at a reasonable price. This might negate the need for the cheap level 1 that comes with the car.

What I would love to see in the future is a 30 kwh traction battery with a 10.3kw charger on board that will take a full level 2 40 amps at 240V.

Clearly, public infrastructure will continue to develop as the population of EVs grows. However, I think it will take a really long time for automakers to include anything but a 120V 12A charge cord with the car. This is THE ubiquitous outlet type in North America and they need to include some way to charge the car. The only other logical choice for an included EVSE is something like the TurboCord Dual, which allows both 120V 12A (NEMA 5-15) and 240V 16A (NEMA 6-20) charging.

As the population of EVs grows, I don't think you will see on-board chargers gaining capacity. If anything, I think you will see a trend toward more DC charging and less AC charging. The Tesla Model X is already starting this trend with 48 or 72A charging instead of 40 or 80A on the Model S. A 7.2kW on-board charger like the one in the e-Golf can replace almost 50kWh of battery charge overnight in 8 hours. If you need to turn around for another trip faster, then you just go out to a DC Fast Charger. I also don't think you will see any more new EVs introduced that lack DC charging. The ones without it are pretty much all compliance cars for which the maker couldn't be bothered to develop the fast charge implementation.

The infrastructure cost for DC charging is very expensive compared to a Level 2 EVSE device wired up on 208 or 240V in public locations. You almost have to wire up a level 3 DC charger right next to the transformers... it takes heavy gauge expensive copper wire to run a DC charger, making installations expensive. Also, I've seen a high percentage of level 3 chargers fail within the first 2 months of operation, requiring expensive service calls to repair and fix. Also the cords are heavy, idiots don't return and hang up the cord, it ends up being driven over, failure ensues again. I attribute it to ignorant users. I've never personally ever seen a woman hang up the cord again after finishing charging, it's like they are afraid to get their hands or fingernails dirty here in Los Angeles. Funny, though, how they can lift it off the hook to get a charge and get plugged in for a quick charge?

 

[furiouschads]

Resolved in my favor. They needed the eGolf all day to diagnose that the charger had failed, they had none in stock, over night shipped one from the LA warehouse, swapped dead for new; done. The all-day diagnosis was over in 5 minutes: plug it into a Service outlet, observe the error lights. Try a second outlet, same result. Conclusion: charger has failed while under warranty. Exactly what I demonstrated for 3 Service guys, when I initially brought it in.

While waiting with the Service guy for my car to be brought up, we had an interesting conversation:

Q: So since it's raining right now, is it OK or not OK, to use the charger?
A: You just gotta use common sense. Don't submerge it in a pool of water or where the sprinklers will soak it repeatedly or if the electrical prongs are wet (dry them off), even though it's got a sealed housing. Laying in the driveway while charging, while it rains, is fine. VW is just trying to sell more replacement chargers, if you admit that it failed while being exposed to rain. It would be ridiculous to sell a pricey outdoor charger that can't handle rain.

Q: So let me ask about using the charger on an extension cord?
A: Again, you just gotta use common sense. Don't use a two-wire lamp extension cord (no ground wire) for any reason. If there's any reason to suspect it might get wet, you gotta use a GFI outlet. Don't use a 100 foot or 50 foot extension cord for any reason. A short, heavy duty extension cord will work just fine. VW is just trying to sell more replacement chargers, if you admit that it failed while being on an extension cord of any type.

Hope this helps someone out there, who is wondering what's good practice and what's not, and what NOT to say to the Service guy.

"caveat emptor" is the reason that I signed a 3 year lease, instead of purchasing.

This is almost identical to my 2019 experience when my OEM EVSE failed under warranty. Service didn't have a spare for testing, wouldn't loan one from a car on the lot, warehouse didn't have one in stock. Took two weeks to deliver the replacement. But my car is a Chevy Volt. I'm lurking here because my Volt is almost off lease. Egolf is the leading replacement candidate.

Has VW improved their response for charger failures or is this still what happens in 2019?

 

[2016golfse]

Has VW improved their response for charger failures or is this still what happens in 2019?

Fair to say that each dealership experience will vary. However, also fair to say that since this thread started in 2015, all of the VW dealers that sell the e-Golf now have their own Level 2 charger on site where they could check to see if the car is charging properly to determine if the portable charger has indeed failed.

Did your Chevy dealer have a Level 2 charger on site to try?

 

[furiouschads]

Good question. I didn't think to ask my dealer. They aren't on the map as having a charger.

 

[RonDawg]

Good question. I didn't think to ask my dealer. They aren't on the map as having a charger.

They may not be on the map as their EVSE may not be available for public use. But they have to have one, otherwise it makes it difficult to maintain an inventory of EV's (even if just one) due to test drives, diagnostic reasons, and also so the customer isn't having to find a charging station as soon as they drive off the lot.

 

[Szyszka]

Resolved in my favor. They needed the eGolf all day to diagnose that the charger had failed, they had none in stock, over night shipped one from the LA warehouse, swapped dead for new; done. The all-day diagnosis was over in 5 minutes: plug it into a Service outlet, observe the error lights. Try a second outlet, same result. Conclusion: charger has failed while under warranty. Exactly what I demonstrated for 3 Service guys, when I initially brought it in.

This is almost identical to my 2019 experience when my OEM EVSE failed under warranty. Service didn't have a spare for testing, wouldn't loan one from a car on the lot, warehouse didn't have one in stock. Took two weeks to deliver the replacement. But my car is a Chevy Volt. I'm lurking here because my Volt is almost off lease. Egolf is the leading replacement candidate.

Has VW improved their response for charger failures or is this still what happens in 2019?

Well, it's still happening in 2019... New 2019 e-Golf with faulty EVSE (TE model made in Czech Republic with all lights flashing) but still capable of charging the car. Showed the behavior to the e-Golf certified mechanic. Both the service advisor and the mechanic confirmed that I need to LEAVE the car with them for a day in order to complete all the 'necessary testing.' They need to do that in order to open the warranty case with VW and (hopefully) replace the faulty EVSE. No amount of arguing ("It's just a faulty EVSE!") made them change their mind. Well, so be it: appointment made for next week; as inconvenient as it's going to be (driving with two cars back and forth - did not bother asking for a loaner since I did not even get the car from that dealer), I am still hoping for a quick resolution.

 

[eetree]

Well, it's still happening in 2019... New 2019 e-Golf with faulty EVSE (TE model made in Czech Republic with all lights flashing) but still capable of charging the car. Showed the behavior to the e-Golf certified mechanic. Both the service advisor and the mechanic confirmed that I need to LEAVE the car with them for a day in order to complete all the 'necessary testing.' They need to do that in order to open the warranty case with VW and (hopefully) replace the faulty EVSE. No amount of arguing ("It's just a faulty EVSE!") made them change their mind. Well, so be it: appointment made for next week; as inconvenient as it's going to be (driving with two cars back and forth - did not bother asking for a loaner since I did not even get the car from that dealer), I am still hoping for a quick resolution.

Happened to me as well when we brought home our new 2019 at the begining of the month. Delphi unit failed after a day or two of use and they would not replace it without 'testing' the car. Fortunately it only took 3 hours instead of a whole day to verify the faulty EVSE. They then give me a replacement unit (TE model made in CR) which has been working great. I saw the paperwork and VW said the unit was worth $469!

 

[Szyszka]

Well, it's still happening in 2019... New 2019 e-Golf with faulty EVSE (TE model made in Czech Republic with all lights flashing) but still capable of charging the car. Showed the behavior to the e-Golf certified mechanic. Both the service advisor and the mechanic confirmed that I need to LEAVE the car with them for a day in order to complete all the 'necessary testing.' They need to do that in order to open the warranty case with VW and (hopefully) replace the faulty EVSE. No amount of arguing ("It's just a faulty EVSE!") made them change their mind. Well, so be it: appointment made for next week; as inconvenient as it's going to be (driving with two cars back and forth - did not bother asking for a loaner since I did not even get the car from that dealer), I am still hoping for a quick resolution.

Happened to me as well when we brought home our new 2019 at the begining of the month. Delphi unit failed after a day or two of use and they would not replace it without 'testing' the car. Fortunately it only took 3 hours instead of a whole day to verify the faulty EVSE. They then give me a replacement unit (TE model made in CR) which has been working great. I saw the paperwork and VW said the unit was worth $469!

Oh, wow, have not heard of the Delphi units failing as of yet. Always thought only the TE models were prone to failure. When my replacement unit arrived, I was quietly hoping I would get the Delphi one but it was not meant to be. Received the same exact unit. Somewhat surprised you were also handed the same model and not the direct replacement (another Delphi). I guess ultimately it does not matter all that much ... Let's just hope they ones we got operate without failure for years to come....

 

[JoulesThief]

I'm not going to be the one to wait for failure. I bought a used one off of Ebay as a backup unit, in case mine ever dies. Never hurts to maintain a spare.

 

[miimura]

Oh, wow, have not heard of the Delphi units failing as of yet. Always thought only the TE models were prone to failure. When my replacement unit arrived, I was quietly hoping I would get the Delphi one but it was not meant to be. Received the same exact unit. Somewhat surprised you were also handed the same model and not the direct replacement (another Delphi). I guess ultimately it does not matter all that much ... Let's just hope they ones we got operate without failure for years to come....

I don't think VW has bought the Delphi unit in the last 2-3 years, so I'm not surprised they provide the current unit, made by TE, upon replacement.