Replacement battery

[JoulesThief]

I just visited a dealership here is So California, and asked about the replacement price of a battery. Seems this dealership had an e Golf come in for a replacement, and when all was said and done, the warranty work came out to about $17,000 to R&R and trouble shoot and replace the battery pack... about a 7 or 8 hour job. That's at 2015 prices.

I was under the impression that a Nissan Leaf replacement battery pack was quoted at $5500 for an R&R. If anyone has more information on this, I'd like to hear about it... $17,000 is stupid money to keep it running.

 

[miimura]

I just visited a dealership here is So California, and asked about the replacement price of a battery. Seems this dealership had an e Golf come in for a replacement, and when all was said and done, the warranty work came out to about $17,000 to R&R and trouble shoot and replace the battery pack... about a 7 or 8 hour job. That's at 2015 prices.

I was under the impression that a Nissan Leaf replacement battery pack was quoted at $5500 for an R&R. If anyone has more information on this, I'd like to hear about it... $17,000 is stupid money to keep it running.

The VW price while under warranty is meaningless. VW also has a capacity warranty on the e-Golf, not just defects. The Nissan price is what they will really charge you out of warranty after core charge credit, but before labor.

 

[RonDawg]

The $5500 quoted cost for a replacement Leaf battery pack is part of Nissan's answer to the complaints (and class action lawsuit) from early adopters who found their battery packs degrading quickly in hot climates. It's pretty well understood that Nissan is selling these below cost.

 

[JoulesThief]

The $5500 quoted cost for a replacement Leaf battery pack is part of Nissan's answer to the complaints (and class action lawsuit) from early adopters who found their battery packs degrading quickly in hot climates. It's pretty well understood that Nissan is selling these below cost.

Has anyone priced out an E-Golf battery. I am pretty sure the folks that are leasing these e-golfs for 3 years don't care much for battery maintenance or being kind to the battery, as the car will be out of their garage or driveway when the decreased battery life starts cutting into the driving range of the car.

If the replacement cost is too high, these E-Golfs will be disposable. Not something I want to put money into if it is excessive. I generally keep my cars a long, long time. Ask anyone how many old VW TDI's are still on the road with over 300k miles on them.

 

[mfennell]

I read that GM's cell cost (just the cells) will be $145/kWh for the Bolt, which was unexpectedly low. VW and GM both use LG Chem for their cells. I have no idea if they're the same chemistry or not but GM is probably committing to much larger purchases. You have to expect VW's cost is $200/kWh or worse. That's $5k VW cost in just the cells, nevermind the pack parts, labor, whatever. It's easy to believe $17k retail.

 

[JoulesThief]

I read that GM's cell cost (just the cells) will be $145/kWh for the Bolt, which was unexpectedly low. VW and GM both use LG Chem for their cells. I have no idea if they're the same chemistry or not but GM is probably committing to much larger purchases. You have to expect VW's cost is $200/kWh or worse. That's $5k VW cost in just the cells, nevermind the pack parts, labor, whatever. It's easy to believe $17k retail.

The batteries really are the fuel tanks and motor in an E-Golf. With VW warrantying for what, 80k miles? 10k miles a year for 8 years. then you need a new motor. An expensive one. Rather bleeding edge in price point, VW TDI's routinely with regular oil changes every 10k miles go 300 to 400k miles, or about 25,000 hours on the motor. Figure 35 to 40 MPH average over the life of the motor, and that's a million miles. Put out there for VW fans comparisons in the different lineups.

 

[mfennell]

That's just the way it is right now. You either choose to play or you don't. If you drive 25k miles/year and expect to keep it for 10 years, the e-golf is probably not your best choice. Some people tried it with the Leaf - the fuel savings really do add up - and it did not work out very well for them.

The battery is really expensive and won't last forever although cost, capacity, and durability are constantly improving. The electric motor should last forever though. The rest of the drivetrain as well. It will never need an exhaust, fuel pump, O2 sensor, MAF, COP, fuel pressure sensor, PCV system (you should see the mess of a PCV system on my V70R), timing belt, or any of a zillion other things. I can't imagine how long it will take before it needs brakes. Never might be a good guess.

FWIW, I think it's crazy to buy one of these cars, especially w/o battery thermal management. I'm happy to take advantage of the lease deals though.

 

[RonDawg]

The $5500 quoted cost for a replacement Leaf battery pack is part of Nissan's answer to the complaints (and class action lawsuit) from early adopters who found their battery packs degrading quickly in hot climates. It's pretty well understood that Nissan is selling these below cost.

Has anyone priced out an E-Golf battery. I am pretty sure the folks that are leasing these e-golfs for 3 years don't care much for battery maintenance or being kind to the battery, as the car will be out of their garage or driveway when the decreased battery life starts cutting into the driving range of the car.

If the replacement cost is too high, these E-Golfs will be disposable. Not something I want to put money into if it is excessive. I generally keep my cars a long, long time. Ask anyone how many old VW TDI's are still on the road with over 300k miles on them.

Unlike Nissan's initial launch of the Leaf, VW is guaranteeing that the eGolf's batteries will have at least 70% capacity for 8 years/100k miles. Nissan now has a battery capacity warranty (retroactive to earlier cars) but that's only good for 5 years or 60k miles.

As far as the VW TDI, if it's one of the later models affected by the scandal, VW's proposed fix could render those cars as slow as an old Rabbit diesel. If you live in a CARB state, you may not be able to renew registration on the car without the fix applied.

 

[PMC2015]

Just a point of clarification, VW didn't work with LG Chem on the battery, it was Panasonic:

https://media.vw.com/model/pack/92/

 

[mfennell]

Just a point of clarification, VW didn't work with LG Chem on the battery, it was Panasonic:

https://media.vw.com/model/pack/92/

Oops. You are absolutely correct. Audi/VW does work with LG Chem but the e-golf and A3 e-tron use Panasonic cells.

 

[JoulesThief]

Just a point of clarification, VW didn't work with LG Chem on the battery, it was Panasonic:

https://media.vw.com/model/pack/92/

Oops. You are absolutely correct. Audi/VW does work with LG Chem but the e-golf and A3 e-tron use Panasonic cells.

Not just any Panasonic cells either, the chemistry on them is different, it is DESIGNED for gentle charging and discharging cycles.

For the record, we've included the detailed statement that Harrison emailed AutoblogGreen below.
Generally speaking, regarding the system, it's important to note that the e-Golf was designed with efficiency in mind. The battery pack utilizes ultra-efficient lithium-ion cells that deliver 25Ah per cell with an energy density of 59Wh per lb. The pack is comprised of 264 cells, packaged into 27 modules (of either 6 or 12 cells) delivering 323 volts and weighing in at 700 lbs. As it relates to battery temperature, VW has developed a Battery Management Unit with an intelligent thermal control that allows the pack to remain within an optimal temperature window, helping to maintain performance and range in a variety of temperatures. This system allows the e-Golf to operate, even in more extreme temperatures, without the need of a cooling system and without dramatic impacts in performance based on testing.

In terms of the battery pack, the engineering goal was to develop a highly efficient system as opposed to one that focused on charge-time or capacity (like some of our competitors). In partnership with Panasonic, VW utilizes a lithium-ion cells designed for gentle charge and de-charge during use which helps to reduce heat and energy consumption often associated with cells designed for rapid charging and de-charging. Our engineers refer to them as "marathon cells." Additionally, without a cooling system weight savings are achieved which aides in overall efficiency of the vehicle. Due to the efficiencies achieved, minimal waste heat is created during operation (i.e. during fast charging) and is quickly directed by the battery metal structure into the chassis, away from the battery, helping to prevent extreme temperature conditions inside the pack.

Our engineers tell us that the e-Golf has passed various long-term engineering evaluation milestones in desert temperatures and cold weather climates, without the necessity of a cooling system.


From this link... http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/31/vw-e-golf-will-not-have-active-cooling-system-lithium-battery/

So drive accordingly, like an old man, this is not a high performance E-car, save the full throttle applications for the Tesla. Also, probably a good idea to forget about 20 minute charges to 80% State of Charge with SAE adapters. Slow and steady 7.2KWh charge rate, or less, over 3 or more hours, is where it's at for this battery pack on the e-Golf.

Oh, and Volkswagen, you are on notice... I am glad your e-Golfs "passed" your long term engineering evaluation milestones.... I hope you did a better job on the programming on the e-golf than you did "passing" the CARB NOX requirements with a "cheat", for emissions, to sell TDi's touting "clean diesel". You made the bed in which you now sleep, Volkswagen.

That chemistry, it turns out, is lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) in cells from Panasonic. These cells had "the lowest self-warming tendency and the lowest memory effect of all cells tested

More info about choice of "fuel tank" chemistry on our e-golfs.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

In typical VW fashion, as they are ruled and run by frugal, cheap accountants...

NMC is the battery of choice for power tools, e-bikes and other electric powertrains. The cathode combination is typically one-third nickel, one-third manganese and one-third cobalt. This offers a unique blend that also lowers the raw material cost due to reduced cobalt content In other words, Volkswagen buys cheap batteries. We will see how they hold up to 8 years and 100,000 miles to 70% charge of original.

 

[Skryll]

[...]
So drive accordingly, like an old man, this is not a high performance E-car, save the full throttle applications for the Tesla. Also, probably a good idea to forget about 20 minute charges to 80% State of Charge with SAE adapters. Slow and steady 7.2KWh charge rate, or less, over 3 or more hours, is where it's at for this battery pack on the e-Golf.

Actually I drive it sporty and it works great for that, just have to be easy on the pedal from full stop to avoid spinning tires because they are not great. Leaves the ICE cars behind every time. Cornering is pretty decent too. I actually like that it is a lighter car than a tesla (the grapes are probably too sour)...

The charging speeds at charge point L2 chargers usually show something below 6.6 kW/h, the 50kW ABB DC fast chargers that NRG was forced to install by the government at whole foods across the area allows charging with 43kW/h initially and then dropping down as it fills up. The siemens versicharge connected to a 30A circuit I dialed in at 6.6kW just to make sure also, so I never actually see the 7.2kW charge rate.

I am happy those SAE combo chargers exist and they have helped me go on longer trips like south bay and even monterey from walnut creek a few times for about $10/charge which I am happy to pay if it gets me that far conveniently. Just have to wait for all those pesky leafs that have free charging at NRG to allow a spot to open up lol...

 

[JoulesThief]

[...]
So drive accordingly, like an old man, this is not a high performance E-car, save the full throttle applications for the Tesla. Also, probably a good idea to forget about 20 minute charges to 80% State of Charge with SAE adapters. Slow and steady 7.2KWh charge rate, or less, over 3 or more hours, is where it's at for this battery pack on the e-Golf.

Actually I drive it sporty and it works great for that, just have to be easy on the pedal from full stop to avoid spinning tires because they are not great. Leaves the ICE cars behind every time. Cornering is pretty decent too. I actually like that it is a lighter car than a tesla (the grapes are probably too sour)...

The charging speeds at charge point L2 chargers usually show something below 6.6 kW/h, the 50kW ABB DC fast chargers that NRG was forced to install by the government at whole foods across the area allows charging with 43kW/h initially and then dropping down as it fills up. The siemens versicharge connected to a 30A circuit I dialed in at 6.6kW just to make sure also, so I never actually see the 7.2kW charge rate.

I am happy those SAE combo chargers exist and they have helped me go on longer trips like south bay and even monterey from walnut creek a few times for about $10/charge which I am happy to pay if it gets me that far conveniently. Just have to wait for all those pesky leafs that have free charging at NRG to allow a spot to open up lol...

Are you on lease, or do you own your 2015?

 

[Skryll]

[...]
So drive accordingly, like an old man, this is not a high performance E-car, save the full throttle applications for the Tesla. Also, probably a good idea to forget about 20 minute charges to 80% State of Charge with SAE adapters. Slow and steady 7.2KWh charge rate, or less, over 3 or more hours, is where it's at for this battery pack on the e-Golf.

Actually I drive it sporty and it works great for that, just have to be easy on the pedal from full stop to avoid spinning tires because they are not great. Leaves the ICE cars behind every time. Cornering is pretty decent too. I actually like that it is a lighter car than a tesla (the grapes are probably too sour)...

[...]

Are you on lease, or do you own your 2015?

I own it, and put 11500 miles on it since january. I was concerned about lease mile limits and figured its a nice near range car to keep around even when replaced with a nicer long range BEV in 3 years... Seeing the price drops for the 2015 SEL lately though I am not sure if that was wise loving the car though, both looks and performance wise.