Electrify America Pricing In California

[2016golfse]

With the opening of new L3 charging stations in California, I took a look at their pricing structure and I like what I see compared to EVgo and ChargePoint.

1) Varying prices per minute depending on the max charge rate your car can accept at the start of the session. $0.25/min for 75 kW, $0.69/min for 125 kW, and $0.99/min for 350 kW.
2) $1.00 per charge session fee, waived for monthly subscribers ($4/month).
3) Like EVgo, discounted prices for monthly subscribers. For the e-Golf, a monthly subscription is advantageous if you do at least two L3 charging sessions per month, each 30 minutes long.
4) Ability to change memberships monthly.
5) With the stations open thus far, the ability actually deliver the max charge rate that the e-Golf will accept.
6) $0.40/min penalty for staying beyond 10-minutes after your charge session is finished. I like this a lot more to encourage turnover than the 45 or 60 minute time limit by EVgo.

For L2 charging, EVgo is $1.50/hr vs. Electrify America's $1.80/hr.

As a side note, see this page for the L3 charging profiles:

https://support.fastned.nl/hc/en-gb/articles/205205168-Charging-with-a-Volkswagen-e-Golf-or-e-up-/

 

[Verbruggan]

Interesting numbers.

I have been wrangling about the DC charging & I would desire some enlightening. Specifically, I have come to believe that when DC charging with regardless of provider & output of the DC charger unit, the DC flow to my e-Golf is limited/ throttled to about 38kWh maximum. This is based off a few of the video's I've watch & my own limited use of DC charging (only used an EVGo station 4x in 3 months).

So my misunderstanding is that regardless of the output of the DC charger:
~ 50-75 kW station
~100-150 kW station
~350kW station
My 2019 e-Golf is not going to accept more than 38-40 kW max. Again a misconception on my part is that the charge units & the electronics in the car are throttling the power in order to not "cook the pack."

Please weigh in & educate/ correct me. Use nice words. Other (even less educated) people on EV's will read this later.

 

[2016golfse]

Specifically, I have come to believe that when DC charging with regardless of provider & output of the DC charger unit, the DC flow to my e-Golf is limited/ throttled to about 38kWh maximum.

You are correct. It's also illustrated in the L3 charge profile graph that I linked, which shows how the flow rate changes with state of charge. So when you plug into an Electrify America station, you'll be charged at the lowest tier.

The difference is that some L3 chargers by other companies don't actually deliver 38 kW, but you could still be paying higher prices.

 

[JoulesThief]

You observation is correct. The charging rate is throttled back with e-Golf batteries.

As a side note, my 2015 SEL with the 24. kWh battery was throttled to something slightly less than yours, about 33 kW on 2 different GreenLots units, one at LAX and one at the Los Angeles Zoo. They were both 55 kWh capable Fadec machines, I believe, made in France.

They also had the heaviest cables I've ever attached to my charging port, and I could observe the charging port fixture on the car flexing downwards under the weight of the handle and cables, once attached.

The faster the recharge rate is with the machine you DCFC to, the thicker and heavier the cables will be, and the handle, to manage the amperage flow capacity of higher speed recharge rates.

I find the ChargePoint 100 for the 2015 and 2016 e-Golf battery packs to be the best in terms of time and minimal damage to the battery pack. Those are rated at 24 kW charge capacity, and you'll sometimes see them branded BMW at BMW dealerships. Max charge rate I believe I have seen out of those was 21.5 to 22 kWh rate in my 2015, on a cool night, coming back along the coast from San Diego to Los Angeles. They charge a bit slower on hot summer days. Battery temp of the pack, if I was just on the freeway, being higher from heavy load demands, would cause these units to slow down to 17 or 16 kWh. Getting off the freeway 2 miles before the charging station and driving surface streets seemed to allow the battery pack to cool off some before reaching the charge station and allow the battery to charge at a faster and higher rate 20.5 to 21.5 kW. I noticed this on more than one occasion, so I take it easy now for a few mile slowing down to 50 or 55 mph before I reach one of these Charge Point 100 EVSE units, or take surface street Blvds the last few miles. YMMV, these were my observations back in 2016, in Southern California. Heat of the battery pack, from load of immediate prior driving or ambient air temps impacts the recharge rate.

I don't really have enough battery and being passively cooled, to feel comfortable with anything that can charge my battery to 90% in under an hour, certainly not in 30 minutes.

These are battery refilling stations, these high speed units. You should probably stay with your vehicle while recharging, and not make another person wait to use the station, once your vehicle is recharged, because you aren't around. You wouldn't do that at a gas pump island, so you shouldn't do it at a DCFC station either. Stay with your car, be courteous. Most of these stations will suggest you move off if someone else is waiting in line when you reach 80% SOC or 30 minutes, which ever comes first.

I've noticed a lot of Tesla owners seem ignorant of this consideration for all BEV owners, at least in my area... the Model 3 owners are still either ignorant, clueless or selfish, take your pick.

 

[egolfEr]

Unfortunately, the eGolf is a difficult car to do road trips with if you want to drive more than 350 miles in a day. It is an excellent commuter vehicle. Looking at the trip planner on plugshare.com, as you can only "fastcharge" twice in a row, you must then level 2 charge. Even doing this is no guarantee of impacting your battery. I would rent a car. Some rental car companies are offering evs for rent, enterprise rent a car, you can rent a Model S 75D for $429 for the week, and this comes with unlimited supercharging. Considering "gas" is included, this is the equivalent of paying $250 for a car per week, not a bad value. ymmv

 

[Sparklebeard]

Unfortunately, the eGolf is a difficult car to do road trips with if you want to drive more than 350 miles in a day. It is an excellent commuter vehicle. Looking at the trip planner on plugshare.com, as you can only "fastcharge" twice in a row, you must then level 2 charge. Even doing this is no guarantee of impacting your battery. I would rent a car. Some rental car companies are offering evs for rent, enterprise rent a car, you can rent a Model S 75D for $429 for the week, and this comes with unlimited supercharging. Considering "gas" is included, this is the equivalent of paying $250 for a car per week, not a bad value. ymmv

I’m fairly sure the recommendation is to avoid any back to back DCFC. I think it will physically let you chain DCFC charge back to back, but you’ll end up throttled and doing some level of damage to the battery of course. I plan my routes to avoid having to DCFC twice in a row, though I’ve had to do it before.

 

[egolfEr]

You are correct, you can only DC charge twice in a row. Throttling is a function of many variables, many of which are not a function of the condition of your car. I actually dont like the word throttling as it implies it is done with intent. I do not feel that is the case with eGolfs, it is more a result of the temperature of the battery, depletion rate of batteries that back DC charger, grid conditions, many factors that may or may not be known.

 

[Sparklebeard]

You are correct, you can only DC charge twice in a row. Throttling is a function of many variables, many of which are not a function of the condition of your car. I actually dont like the word throttling as it implies it is done with intent. I do not feel that is the case with eGolfs, it is more a result of the temperature of the battery, depletion rate of batteries that back DC charger, grid conditions, many factors that may or may not be known.

Could you please elaborate? Does your car completely prevent you from DCFC charging a third time in a row? Do you mean with continuous driving between each charge session?

I consider throttling to be a reasonable word to use. The BMS will actively manage charge speed based on a number of variables, like you said, including temperature.

Grid conditions is a bit of a separate issue; that affects any EV charger.

 

[egolfEr]

If the batteries that back up the fast charger are depleted, or depending on who else is charging next to you, and what rate they are charging, these are all factors that impact your charge rate. There are a number of factors including how the charging station is configured. My point is that you probably don't know for certain why your car is charging at the rate that it is. Even in ideal conditions, cool battery, completely depeleted battery ( as you know charging is not linear), full capacity from the charger side you may still not get 50Kw rate. That is a theoretical maximum the car can do.

What has been your experience? Are you using the 150 Kw chargers?

 

[Sparklebeard]

If the batteries that back up the fast charger are depleted, or depending on who else is charging next to you, and what rate they are charging, these are all factors that impact your charge rate. There are a number of factors including how the charging station is configured. My point is that you probably don't know for certain why your car is charging at the rate that it is. Even in ideal conditions, cool battery, completely depeleted battery ( as you know charging is not linear), full capacity from the charger side you may still not get 50Kw rate. That is a theoretical maximum the car can do.

What has been your experience? Are you using the 150 Kw chargers?

I’m talking about the statement you made that e-Golfs can’t be DCFC’d more than twice in a row. You made a declarative statement and I was curious if that actually meant they physically wouldn’t allow it or if it would just DCFC slowly as it got hot, like a Leaf.

I am not talking specifically about EA chargers or anything that would have to do with the power supply of the charger.

 

[f1geek]

You can physically DC Fast Charge the e-golf more than two times in a row.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/slowing-after-multiple-rapid-charges.141410/

The maximum charge current the 35.8 kWh e-Golf will accept is about 108 amps. At maximum pack voltage (about 360 volts), the most the e-Golf will accept is 39 kW.

https://support.fastned.nl/hc/en-gb/articles/205205168-Charging-with-a-Volkswagen-e-Golf-e-up-?utm_source=WebEN-Car&utm_campaign=Klant-support&utm_medium=Hyper1

Yes, you can absolutely tell the charge speed - look at the DCFC station display or tap into your car's computer during charging with an OBD dongle and software.

As long as the charger can deliver 108 amps at 360 volts, your e-Golf will charge at its maximum rate.That means the station can be a 50 kW, 80 kW, 100 kW, 125 kW, 150 kW, 200 kW, 175 kW, or 350 kW (or whatever the owners wants to rate it at) rated station and the e-Golf charge rate will be identical (as long as the station can deliver at least 108 amps) . If the station battery storage is depleted, my guess is the charge provider will pay more for electricity, but the car charge rate will be unaffected. In my experience, only the crap Chargepoint "24 kW" (actually about 18 kW in my experience) DCFC and the BTC "50 kW" (100 amps max, so more like 36 kW) stations don't max out the e-golf charge rate.

The e-Golf BMS will control charge speed depending on ambient temperature, pack temperature, etc.

 

[egolfEr]

Thanks for sharing the source info. My point was not around if or not you could charge more than back to back, I was commenting more on all the factors that go into the rate of charge and there are many.

 

[f1geek]

Based on the link I provided, you can DCFC the e-Golf many more than 2 times in a row and potentially not see a slow down in charge rate until the 4th DCFC session. This is, of course, dependent on the battery pack temperature. That's not say it's good for the longevity of the battery pack, and if VW is logging DCFC sessions, may void your warranty. Best of luck!

 

[livestrong126m]

Based on the link I provided, you can DCFC the e-Golf many more than 2 times in a row and potentially not see a slow down in charge rate until the 4th DCFC session. This is, of course, dependent on the battery pack temperature. That's not say it's good for the longevity of the battery pack, and if VW is logging DCFC sessions, may void your warranty. Best of luck!

There is no language in the warranty that says they will or can void your warranty if you charge via DCFC multiple times in a row.

Everyone seems to be freaking out about using a DCFC more than twice because VW recommends against it. But as you are also all saying, the charge rate of the car is temperature dependent. It's dependent on the battery pack temperature, the ambient temperature, and the rate at which the car is driven. During my last long trip with my 2017 e-Golf, I monitored the battery pack temperature throughout my trip. It wasn't until my THIRD session with a DCFC that my battery got even close to operating temperature (around 25 C). 45 miles into my trip at 70 MPH with the AC on then a DCFC charge to 100% the pack temp was only 17 odd C. Then 60 or so miles later I plugged into another DCFC station for about 15 minutes. The pack was still only around 20 C. It wasn't until I drove another 100 miles and plugged into the last DCFC station of my trip did my pack reach around 25 C, and it was at this point I finally reached peak charging capacity. Ambient temperatures the whole time were 23 to 18 C. Granted that's ideal, but it would take a lot of driving and a lot more DCFC sessions to get the battery pack hot enough to throttle back charging and even get remotely close to doing "damage."

And yes, the vehicle's OBD system does log charging sessions, but at least with the Ross-Tech, you can't see how many sessions were back to back. I doubt the factory's ODIS system could do that, and the only time a dealer or VW might try to deny a warranty claim is if you very recently did a ton of DCFC sessions back to back.

 

[f1geek]

There is language in the warranty that says you can void the coverage with frequent and consecutive high-voltage charging. Please read the manual for the and the warranty booklet for the battery pack and you will see the wording. You can conjecture about VW's ability to monitor charge sessions, but unless you can understand the computer code, you don't know what VW monitors (neither do I, for that matter) and there is chance that charging behavior is logged only if it violates some VW coded flag.

You are, of course, free to charge the car however you like and I agree the BMS will monitor cell and pack temperatures and throttle charge rate accordingly. Charge rate is controlled by the BMS, and while I'm sure temperature plays into the calculation, since we can't see the computer code, we don't know exactly how the BMS manages charge rate. I have seen the pack temperature above 30 C due to warm summer days and highway driving during the early afternoon, but if you are able to keep the pack at 25 C then I agree there won't be any accelerated degradation.

What is "peak charging capacity"? I have been able to charge at 39 kW even with a cold (~15 C) battery pack.

 

[PriusAndTeslaServiceCntr]

Thanks for the comparisons.

Basically fast charging does effect the battery life the more you use it... especially when batteries are older.
Leaving the car sitting for months at a time also causes a major effect to the battery's life.

Yes, the BMS' job is to monitor and manage battery conditions, but best practices is still the owner's responsibility to insure longevity.
Just my 2 cents

 

[f1geek]

Thanks for the comparisons.

Basically fast charging does effect the battery life the more you use it... especially when batteries are older.
Leaving the car sitting for months at a time also causes a major effect to the battery's life.

Yes, the BMS' job is to monitor and manage battery conditions, but best practices is still the owner's responsibility to insure longevity.
Just my 2 cents

Studies have shown that DCFC has a minimal, if any (on cars with cooled packs) effect on degradation. If you leave pack at 50% SoC for months of storage, deg will be essentially zero.

 

[PriusAndTeslaServiceCntr]

Studies have shown that DCFC has a minimal, if any (on cars with cooled packs) effect on degradation. If you leave pack at 50% SoC for months of storage, deg will be essentially zero.

We work on cars after warranty period and we've seen otherwise to both claims by manufacturers and independent studies.

I'm not suggesting either is bad, I'm just saying the excessiveness of both degrades a battery's extended life span and I want to set expectations.

We've also seen batteries that are just 3 years old, has proper thermal management, but performs worse that a 10 year old battery. This is an extreme case based on the stats we read from the car though and not an average user.

 

[f1geek]

We work on cars after warranty period and we've seen otherwise to both claims by manufacturers and independent studies.

I'm not suggesting either is bad, I'm just saying the excessiveness of both degrades a battery's extended life span and I want to set expectations.

We've also seen batteries that are just 3 years old, has proper thermal management, but performs worse that a 10 year old battery. This is an extreme case based on the stats we read from the car though and not an average user.

And your sample size is nowhere near the sample size of large studies.