charger failure/VW policy failure

[kenward]

2015 eGolf SEL leased from Stevens Creek VW in San Jose, CA in June, ~3700 miles.

Friday morning (yesterday) I set out on my commute from West SJ to Union City, ~30 miles each way. Upon arrival at work, pulled out the 120VAC Delphi charger, plugged it into the company extension cord. It was raining. Charger indicated Power + Power Fault + Charging Fault. Took it inside to try in the lab, same result. Charger has failed. I charge at home then trickle charge at work.

Called SCVW at noon (darn meetings!) to see about coming in, getting a replacement charger. They promised to check stock and call right back. Didn't happen. Arrived at Service at 4:30pm, demonstrated charger failure for them. Here comes the next problem.

"We're sorry, but we have none in stock. If our Service rep had checked stock immediately and found zero, we could have had one over-nighted from the LA warehouse. However, now you won't be able to get one until Tuesday." They did agree to check if I could "borrow" one from a new eGolf, then they would swap in the new one from LA. We'll get back to you tomorrow (Saturday/today).

Today's message was "Sorry, we can't loan you a charger. Also we can't give you the replacement charger from LA when it arrives. You have to leave the eGolf for all of Wednesday, so we can test your dead charger. However we'll give you a free new loaner Passat for that day."

What?!?! I have to leave my eGolf for an entire day because the charger has failed? There is nothing wrong with the car! Requiring me to leave my car for a day because the charger has failed is just ridiculous. My commute is 60-90 minutes as it is, using the carpool lane. The Passat will bump that up to 2 hours each way, at least. Not to mention the irony of replacing an electric car with an ICE car because the $100 external charger has failed.

After the charger failed upon connection to the extension cord, the charger was never connected to the eGolf, so I don't understand how there could be a problem with the car. Besides, verifying the charger failure takes 5 minutes max. I recharged today at the Cupertino Library. I'm going to talk to VW Customer Care tomorrow.

Grrrr...

 

[JoulesThief]

2015 eGolf SEL leased from Stevens Creek VW in San Jose, CA in June, ~3700 miles.

Friday morning (yesterday) I set out on my commute from West SJ to Union City, ~30 miles each way. Upon arrival at work, pulled out the 120VAC Delphi charger, plugged it into the company extension cord. It was raining. Charger indicated Power + Power Fault + Charging Fault. Took it inside to try in the lab, same result. Charger has failed. I charge at home then trickle charge at work.

Called SCVW at noon (darn meetings!) to see about coming in, getting a replacement charger. They promised to check stock and call right back. Didn't happen. Arrived at Service at 4:30pm, demonstrated charger failure for them. Here comes the next problem.

"We're sorry, but we have none in stock. If our Service rep had checked stock immediately and found zero, we could have had one over-nighted from the LA warehouse. However, now you won't be able to get one until Tuesday." They did agree to check if I could "borrow" one from a new eGolf, then they would swap in the new one from LA. We'll get back to you tomorrow (Saturday/today).

Today's message was "Sorry, we can't loan you a charger. Also we can't give you the replacement charger from LA when it arrives. You have to leave the eGolf for all of Wednesday, so we can test your dead charger. However we'll give you a free new loaner Passat for that day."

What?!?! I have to leave my eGolf for an entire day because the charger has failed? There is nothing wrong with the car! Requiring me to leave my car for a day because the charger has failed is just ridiculous. My commute is 60-90 minutes as it is, using the carpool lane. The Passat will bump that up to 2 hours each way, at least. Not to mention the irony of replacing an electric car with an ICE car because the $100 external charger has failed.

After the charger failed upon connection to the extension cord, the charger was never connected to the eGolf, so I don't understand how there could be a problem with the car. Besides, verifying the charger failure takes 5 minutes max. I recharged today at the Cupertino Library. I'm going to talk to VW Customer Care tomorrow.

Grrrr...

Read the instructions with that Delphi HVSE next time before you plug it in to anything but a wall socket. It's not a warranty issue when you plug in to an extension cord.

 

[nsayer]

One of the many safety checks that EVSEs perform is a ground impedance test. If the path from the hot line(s) to ground is not sufficiently conductive, they will shut down. It's conceivable that an extension cord might add sufficient ground impedance to cause the EVSE to shut down.

It's unusual for a consumer device to test ground impedance, but it's critical to insure that the vehicle is grounded as its sitting on four rubber tires. If it's not securely grounded and if it suffers a ground fault, then that means that the entire metal surface/framework of the vehicle will be energized with line voltage - an incredibly unsafe condition.

As for extension cords, in and of themselves they're not unsafe provided they're not overloaded. EVSEs are continuous duty devices and as such require a 20% derating. That means to get 12A, you need a cord rated for 15A. You can get a heavy duty extension cord with that rating, but if you don't, then you're inviting an electrical fire.

 

[JoulesThief]

One of the many safety checks that EVSEs perform is a ground impedance test. If the path from the hot line(s) to ground is not sufficiently conductive, they will shut down. It's conceivable that an extension cord might add sufficient ground impedance to cause the EVSE to shut down.

It's unusual for a consumer device to test ground impedance, but it's critical to insure that the vehicle is grounded as its sitting on four rubber tires. If it's not securely grounded and if it suffers a ground fault, then that means that the entire metal surface/framework of the vehicle will be energized with line voltage - an incredibly unsafe condition.

As for extension cords, in and of themselves they're not unsafe provided they're not overloaded. EVSEs are continuous duty devices and as such require a 20% derating. That means to get 12A, you need a cord rated for 15A. You can get a heavy duty extension cord with that rating, but if you don't, then you're inviting an electrical fire.

What do the instructions say that came with the EVSE... Do Not use with an extension cord. Oops, warranty is now void.

 

[nsayer]

Well, there's often a difference between what's officially supported and what actually works. The manual likely says not to use an extension cord because people who don't know what is required for safety will wind up creating hazards. It's always easier to disallow something than to try and teach how to do something out of the ordinary safely. Any parent will tell you that.

I've said why an extension cord could cause the EVSE to complain. The original poster could attempt to test the EVSE without an extension cord to see if that's the problem. A ground impedance test failure doesn't damage the EVSE. It just won't work without a better ground. If the EVSE works in other circumstances, then at least you know what the problem is and know that there's nothing the dealer can do about it.

 

[kenward]

Fair question. The owners manual calls out a warning to not use extension cords and to always use a GFI protected circuit. Electrically I'm on solid ground with using a heavy-duty 20A extension cord (same as used to run our machinery in the machine shop) on a GFI protected circuit.

I did test the charger on an outlet in the machine shop and it still threw the faults.

I've read the Warranty booklet twice, looking carefully at what is excluded from warranty coverage. It is silent on any exclusions related to use of the charger.

However, given the warnings in the owners manual, I'm probably going to lose this argument for warranty coverage of the charger itself. I'll post the outcome.

This still doesn't satisfy my unhappiness about VW requiring me to leave the eGolf for an entire day to "diagnose" the failed charger.

Regards,
Ken

 

[nsayer]

I'm surprised they recommend a GFCI outlet. I would actually not use one of those for an EVSE because the GCM circuit winds up either tripping them or increasing their sensitivity.

It's still conceivable that the problem is the grounding of the outlet you're using. But at this point, testing it at the dealer is probably just as easy as continuing to try and test it yourself.

It's a shame that EVSEs are not more specific about error conditions. There are lots of them and just a single red light is less than helpful.

 

[JoulesThief]

Fair question. The owners manual calls out a warning to not use extension cords and to always use a GFI protected circuit. Electrically I'm on solid ground with using a heavy-duty 20A extension cord (same as used to run our machinery in the machine shop) on a GFI protected circuit.

I did test the charger on an outlet in the machine shop and it still threw the faults.

I've read the Warranty booklet twice, looking carefully at what is excluded from warranty coverage. It is silent on any exclusions related to use of the charger.

However, given the warnings in the owners manual, I'm probably going to lose this argument for warranty coverage of the charger itself. I'll post the outcome.

This still doesn't satisfy my unhappiness about VW requiring me to leave the eGolf for an entire day to "diagnose" the failed charger.

Regards,
Ken

If you can't spare the car, and you feel you'll lose the battle on the EVSE, then just go order a new or used Clippercreek off of eBay with the same specs, and go about your business, don't leave the car with VW. You did plug it in to an extension cord, so it's questionable if you read the instructions that came with the EVSE. You know the car charges on your EVSE unit at home... so the charger on board functions.

I just don't see VW owing you anything at this point in terms of a new EVSE, so order one elsewhere, or see if VW will cut you some slack in price on a new unit.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Chargers-Service-Equipment-/177704/i.html?_dcat=177704&Level=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

 

[RonDawg]

Hopefully VW will warranty the OEM EVSE, though as the OP said I can't find specific verbiage in the warranty booklet about it. Nissan certainly does with theirs, unless you modified it and/or somehow managed to plug it into a 200+ volt circuit, which people HAVE done because "the internet said it was dual voltage."

BTW the VW EVSE is basically the Clipper Creek PCS-15: http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/pcs-15-portable-level-1-evse/ If you are forced to buy your own replacement, it's likely to be a lot cheaper from Clipper Creek than getting the official VW replacement part....and it comes with a 3 year warranty. You may want to also call Clipper Creek directly; IIRC someone called them after having a problem with the OEM VW version, and Clipper Creek ended up sending them a replacement out of good will. Or perhaps they might be able to repair yours for less than a full replacement.

 

[kenward]

I did read the owners manual about using the charger and decided that from an electrical point of view, an 8 foot, 20A extension cord connected to a known GFI circuit was safe for me to use.

I'm confident that other owners have tried other extension cord methods, such as a 100 foot 3-wire, no GFI extension cord or a 2-wire desk lamp extension cord with no ground at all plus a 5A limit. Users such as those are why hair dryers have to be labeled "do not use while in bathtub or shower" or why VW issues the blanket statement "do not use with extension cord" instead of listing what methods are suitable.

My own electrical opinion is that a charger that *can't* be operated safely on a 8 foot, 20A GFI protected extension cord is a poorly designed, make it as cheap as you can charger. Not something worthy of the Delphi label and VW OEM designation.

I'll post the resolution of this situation.

I appreciate the discussion!

 

[REM]

I'll bet that it was the rain, not the extension cord that caused the fault. I used a heavy duty extension cord with the EVSE that came with my LEAF, and I know that many others have used them successfully with other EVSEs. However, the e-Golf's EVSE isn't rated for use in rain. I was surprised when I read that in the manual. When I got my LEAF I didn't have a garage and charged it outside with the EVSE until I got a charge station. It's good that I have a garage now.

 

[kenward]

The charger isn't rated for use in rain? So if I start charging and notice that rain has started, I must run out and disconnect my charger until the rain stops? Even in the middle of the night?

I haven't seen that warning. Please point me towards where I can find it.

Didn't get an answer from the Service Department yesterday. Left a vmail for my Service Advisor, asking if the replacement got ordered and if so, when is the expected arrival? She never called back. Guess I'll try again today.

Thanks!

 

[REM]

The salesman told me that it isn't weatherproof, and I think I saw something on the packaging, but I cannot find anything in the manual or on the EVSE itself. I would prefer to be wrong; maybe the salesman just planted the idea in my head.

 

[kenward]

Update from last night (Wednesday). I had called the Service Adviser on Monday morning, leaving a voice mail asking if the replacement charger had been ordered and when would it arrive? No answer. I repeated the voicemail on Tuesday morning. No answer. On Wednesday morning I called and left a vmail for the Service Manager, thinking that he could address why the Service Adviser was not returning a simple call for a status update on the failed charger. No answer.

Last night I skipped out of work early to visit the dealership, find out what was going on. The Service Adviser I spoke with, informed me that my Service Adviser doesn't work on Monday's or Tuesday's, which is why she never called me back. I was also informed that the Service Manager called in sick that day, which is why he never called me back.

I'm surprised that the dealership doesn't require employees who regularly get phone calls, to leave an outgoing message saying that they won't be in that day. Same for the Service Manager.

What I discovered is that SCVW hasn't ordered the replacement charger. They won't do that until they have my eGolf for an entire day so they can determine if the charger has failed. If so, they'll order a replacement charger, which could take several days to arrive. Given that the LA warehouse only had 2 on last Friday, I wouldn't be surprised if after the Service appointment on Monday, the warehouse discovers that it now has none.

I can't imagine that customers experiencing this level of Service support from this dealer, would be encouraged to become a repeat customer.

 

[JoulesThief]

I can't imagine that customers experiencing this level of Service support from this dealer, would be encouraged to become a repeat customer.

Maybe you should read my signature, or talk to a few TDI owners. They do come back. It's just that VW product is not for every one. You might be one it's not for. When you own a VW, your expectations for quality service from the dealership needs to be lowered considerably. Ask any VW owner.

 

[kenward]

Your sig says "2012 Touareg TDI Sport, 2013 Touareg TDI Sport, 2014 Passat TDI SE, 2015 e-Golf SEL" so I didn't see any negative info about customer service but I see you are a repeat customer. I didn't gain any additional info by looking at your profile. Basically I don't know anything about you, but no worries. If you're on this forum, I assume you have the best of intentions towards other owners.

I haven't owned a VW before; my previous car was a 2013 Nissan Leaf on a 2 year lease. It made me excited about the future of electric cars. Mostly I think the eGolf is better than the Leaf, but there are some things Nissan does better. Based on 6 months of experience with VW customer service so far, when this lease expires in 2.5 years, I won't be owning a VW again. But things could change in that time so I'll reserve final judgement until then.

In 2013 Nissan was the only manufacturer who had electric cars in stock in my area so the selection was limited. In June 2015 when the Leaf lease expired, there were multiple choices and the 2015 eGolf SEL appealed to me. I will predict that in June 2018 that the range of choices will be even better.

 

[JoulesThief]

Your sig says "2012 Touareg TDI Sport, 2013 Touareg TDI Sport, 2014 Passat TDI SE, 2015 e-Golf SEL" so I didn't see any negative info about customer service but I see you are a repeat customer. I didn't gain any additional info by looking at your profile. Basically I don't know anything about you, but no worries. If you're on this forum, I assume you have the best of intentions towards other owners.

I haven't owned a VW before; my previous car was a 2013 Nissan Leaf on a 2 year lease. It made me excited about the future of electric cars. Mostly I think the eGolf is better than the Leaf, but there are some things Nissan does better. Based on 6 months of experience with VW customer service so far, when this lease expires in 2.5 years, I won't be owning a VW again. But things could change in that time so I'll reserve final judgement until then.

In 2013 Nissan was the only manufacturer who had electric cars in stock in my area so the selection was limited. In June 2015 when the Leaf lease expired, there were multiple choices and the 2015 eGolf SEL appealed to me. I will predict that in June 2018 that the range of choices will be even better.

VW's aren't for everyone. Folks that come from quite reliable japanese cars are in for sticker shock when it comes to VW service, warranty coverage, and price of spare parts, and repairs. Just letting you know, they are not cheap to service or operate. VW's business model is based on recurring expenses on items that fail on their product, hopefully just as it gets out of warranty.

Live by the rule caveat emptor with buying cars.

Keep in mind, the charger is not the car, and is normally warrantied by the manufacturer of the EVSE, in this case, Delphi.

 

[kenward]

Resolved in my favor. They needed the eGolf all day to diagnose that the charger had failed, they had none in stock, over night shipped one from the LA warehouse, swapped dead for new; done. The all-day diagnosis was over in 5 minutes: plug it into a Service outlet, observe the error lights. Try a second outlet, same result. Conclusion: charger has failed while under warranty. Exactly what I demonstrated for 3 Service guys, when I initially brought it in.

While waiting with the Service guy for my car to be brought up, we had an interesting conversation:

Q: So since it's raining right now, is it OK or not OK, to use the charger?
A: You just gotta use common sense. Don't submerge it in a pool of water or where the sprinklers will soak it repeatedly or if the electrical prongs are wet (dry them off), even though it's got a sealed housing. Laying in the driveway while charging, while it rains, is fine. VW is just trying to sell more replacement chargers, if you admit that it failed while being exposed to rain. It would be ridiculous to sell a pricey outdoor charger that can't handle rain.

Q: So let me ask about using the charger on an extension cord?
A: Again, you just gotta use common sense. Don't use a two-wire lamp extension cord (no ground wire) for any reason. If there's any reason to suspect it might get wet, you gotta use a GFI outlet. Don't use a 100 foot or 50 foot extension cord for any reason. A short, heavy duty extension cord will work just fine. VW is just trying to sell more replacement chargers, if you admit that it failed while being on an extension cord of any type.

Hope this helps someone out there, who is wondering what's good practice and what's not, and what NOT to say to the Service guy.

"caveat emptor" is the reason that I signed a 3 year lease, instead of purchasing.

 

[RonDawg]

Re: using a two prong extension cord, a lack of a good ground will cause a fault light to come on at the EVSE and won't allow a charge.

 

[REM]

I'm glad to hear that you received a replacement EVSE. Also, thanks for sharing the info about rain and extension cords. It's good to hear that I was wrong about charging in the rain. I had pretty much written off the EVSE as worthless if I couldn't charge in rain or snow, as Im most likely to need an emergency charge in inclement weather.

However, I'm still somewhat surprised about not using long extension cords. I understand that there are liability issues, and a lot of that comes down to using the right cord, where you have it, and if you're using it as a permanent solution. After reading about what others have done on the Leaf forum, I picked up a heavy duty extension cord. I only used it a couple times. No problems. I would think that the ability to reduce the charge speed with the e-Golf would also help if anyone is worried about heating up the cord while charging (I frequently checked mine, and I never had a problem). In my opinion the prohibition on using extension cords is the same as the LEAF's caution that the EVSE that comes with the car is for emergency use only; they cannot vouch for your electrical outlet or which extension cord you're using, so they say don't do it.