2016 SE charging times

[shyamster]

Considering a SE as a "drive kids around for activities" car. It will be used max 40-50 miles per day. Trying to understand charging times for the 3.6KW charger. Compared to an SEL, I was told:

1. Instead of taking 4 hours to charge on a 240 charger it now takes 8 hours
2. instead of taking 20 hours to charge on a 120 charger it now takes 40 hours

Is this true? That would definitely mean that I need to plan for a 240v charger. Looking for some practical user experience...

 

[JoulesThief]

24.2 KWH battery, useful amount is probably closer to 22KWH.

I usually charge up in about 3 to 3.5 hours with a 7.2KWH charger and 240 volts at 30 amps. That's when my range shows 129 miles and I'm showing 28 to 33 miles left for range, and getting 5.7 miles per KWH.

The stock charger that comes with the car is 1.3KWH. At 1.2 kw with the stock charger at 120V and 12 Amps, you are looking at about 20 -22 hours to fully charge. If you drive 50 miles, gently, at 60 -65, and use the electric regen brake feature, figure 10 to 11 hours, maybe 12, to recharge 50 miles. Run the AC, run the headlights, don't ebrake with the shifter and use the foot pedal, and the hours to recharge go up significantly, they all discharge the battery much faster.

The 3.2kw, if you get a good 240V charger like this, will probably cut your charge time to 33% of what the charger that comes with the car does, but you will have to get a 240 outlet at home for it to cut your charging time down. Plan on 6-8 hours at a public charger that is 3.6 KWH or greater capacity. http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-lcs-20-level-2/

First sentence that you quoted is correct. 4 hours is now 8 hours with 240V and 15 amps.

The second sentence you quoted, is incorrect. Input amps limits your charging rate.... if you could get a 120V charger with 30 amp capacity, you'd still get a through put rate of 3.6KWH, the limit of your on board charger, which is also 3.6KWH.

So even with the 3.2 kwh, if your connection is 1.3kwh, you still are at 20 hours, not 40, to fully charge.

 

[miimura]

I don't know the actual specs of the charger in the 2016 SE. However, here's how the math works. You can adjust to your situation, if you know more accurate information.

Battery is about 22kWh usable.
Driving efficiency varies according to driving style and terrain, etc. Typical values in an e-Golf around town are 4.0-5.0 miles/kWh.

If the spec of the on-board charger in USA is 3.6kW, then they must assume 240VAC. 3.6kW = 3,600W. 3,600W / 240 V = 15 Amp
The provided charging cord is 120V * 12A = 1.44kW
The on-board charger has it's own efficiency which we will guess is 85% as a conservative number.

Let's say 50 miles per day, charging every night, with a typical efficiency of 4.0mi/kWh driving. This is pretty much a worst case scenario.

50mi / 4.0 mi/kWh = 12.5kWh
12.5kWh / 3.6kW / 85% = 4.2 hours

Absolutely full charge from dead empty would be 22kWh / 3.6kW / 85% = 7.2 hours

Using the provided 120V cord, those times are:
12.5kWh / 1.44kW / 85% = 10.2 hours
22.0kWh / 1.44kW / 85% = 18 hours

Using the provided 120V cord, the charging time is the same no matter whether you have a 2015, 2016, SE, LE, or SEL.

Most public chargers are on commercial power which is 208V. So it takes nominally 240/208=1.15 X longer to charge in public. Sometimes the voltage sags down to 200VAC, so it could be 20% longer than at home.

In any case, to get the 3.6kW charging rate you will need a 240V circuit and an EVSE capable of delivering at least 15 amps.

 

[RonDawg]

If the OP regularly (as in more than once a week) drives more than 30 miles per day, I do NOT recommend staying on L1 charging. The car will spend too much time charging and puts a real crimp on its versatility.

My commute is less than 30 miles per day, but having L2 makes the car so much more useable. I'm not having to choose between having to drive a considerable distance during the evening, or being able to do so the following morning; I can do both.

 

[JoulesThief]

OP might also consider getting the 7.2kwh charger pack option on the LE, but that might be months away before VW puts those on dealership lots.

Regardless of which you pick, plan on getting a Level 2 240V charger, there's really just no other way around it to make the charging times bearable, not with 40 to 50 mile trips, blasting the AC, which takes a considerable 20% bite out of the range of the battery.

Charging should, for any operator, be a night time activity in the garage, once you get home, and completed before you need to leave the next morning. All night long distance drives are not this cars forte.

 

[shyamster]

Thanks for all the great information. It's quite a bit of confusing information even for an engineer!

It sounds like I need a level 2 charger if I plan to get anywhere close to the full range of the car each day without recharging.

Thankfully I work from home and most trips end right back in my garage. I have the luxury of topping it off between trips. Any issues with that?

 

[miimura]

The main issue with charging any time and every time you park at home is your electricity rates. In CA, you can save a lot of money if you use a rate plan that has lower Off-Peak rates. However, this increases your afternoon rates and forces you to charge only between about 11pm and 7am in order to realize those savings. The actual hours depend on your utility company. If you are in PG&E territory, I can help you analyze your situation and estimate how much it will cost you to add EV charging to your bill with the various rate plans. With Time-of-Use rates, it can get pretty complicated.

 

[JoulesThief]

Thanks for all the great information. It's quite a bit of confusing information even for an engineer!

It sounds like I need a level 2 charger if I plan to get anywhere close to the full range of the car each day without recharging.

Thankfully I work from home and most trips end right back in my garage. I have the luxury of topping it off between trips. Any issues with that?

You can get by with 8 hours of charging at night with any charger that provides at least 3.6kwh or more, without doing the charger pack upgrade on the car. But you may as well get a future proof 240V circuit, and wiring, probably at least 50 amp rated to the outlet, for your next electric car, as well as the same for the device that locks and unlocks all the electricity. The only restriction will be the 3.2kwh on the current car, and if you aren't maxing out the range at all, in the life of the car, it's a non issue, assuming you have another car for those longer trips.

 

[chencezann]

Hi everyone,
Much like the OP, I am an engineer by training, but am totally confused on this (maybe because I was civil engineer haahaa). Perhaps I can ask some questions worded in another way, for my sakes.

I was in the market for a remaining 2015, but the deals on 2016 SE's are so good, for me, the feature differences aren't a huge deal. The only thing I'm worried about is the charging.

My work roundtrip is no more than 20 miles. However, we have no space in our garage, so I wouldn't be able to charge it at home on Level 1 regularly/reliably. Once in a while would be ok. To be honest, it's more about I don't want to displace the wife's minivan because it takes so much more time to wash it if it gets dirty from sitting outside.

So my plan was to charge every few days, using L2 chargers at work. They're not free, but I think most of the ones I've seen around here is $1 an hour.

So with a 2015, I was planning on charging at work every few days, and it would just take 3-4 hours max to fill up, and then I'd be all set for 3-4 days.

Based on everyone's comments, especially miimura's examples: So you're saying if I am about half empty (50 miles hypothetically) and I plug in a SE, with a 3.6 onboard charger, into a Level 2 public charger, it will fill up in about 4.2 hours?

Am I correct to say that if I'm paying by the hour to charge at a public L2 charger, then it will cost up to twice as much because of the 3.6 onboard charger?

Last question: Is the SE capable of super fast charging? The 30 minutes to 80% type? I know they say it's not good to always use that, but if no other option...

Thanks in advance.

 

[miimura]

An SE without the optional charging package will take twice as long as an SEL or LE to charge in public. If you pay by the hour at a public station, the SE is going to cost you twice as much for the same energy.

An SE without the optional charging package cannot do DC Fast Charge (80% in 30 minutes) at all.

In your situation, if you can't install a 240V EVSE with a 25 foot cord, I would get a 12 gauge or even 10 gauge extension cord and charge at home on 120V instead of relying on charging at work. My EVSE is mounted on the side wall of my garage. Its 25 foot cord can reach both cars in the garage and two cars in the driveway, if you are willing to turn the driveway cars around as necessary to position the charge port closer to the EVSE.

 

[JoulesThief]

Some options...

Level 2 wired for 240V. http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product-category/12a-15a-charging/

Level 1, wired for 120V, at 15 amp circuit, 20 amp (probably can run off of washer and dryer outlet at 20 amps, has a funny T to the left terminal outlet.) and 25 amp circuit. http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product-category/12a-charging/

Problem with wiring these is you may not be future proofing for your next electrical car, which will probably have 7.2 or greater kwh possibilities, so a 40 or 50 amp circuit, breaker and capable panel, if your existing panel can handle it, is the way to go.

What I can say is this: I resent the heck out of people that went cheap on the charger packs on their electric cars hogging charging time for 4 hours at public chargers. Chevy Volts with 3.2kwh chargers are some of the worst, 3.5 to 4 hours parked to gain miniscule miles, 35 or 40, when there are folks with zero emission vehicles that are not hybrid, but are battery powered only, that really do need the existing infrastructure to get on their way, down the road.

 

[JoulesThief]

Actual draw of the trickle EVSE Delphi that comes with the car in KWH. 2 modes. KWH might be higher without the 50 feet of extension cord, but thats where I have the shunt from the ground to the neutral wire on the female portion of the plug on the extension cord.

 

[chencezann]

I am obviously not the OP, but thanks for the info everyone.

I think I'll be ok with level 1 charging, I'm going to go to the dealer this week to see if he will match the NorCal deals (79 a month, $3XXX drive out) out there.

On that note (and I guess this should be a new thread) but does anyone know why SoCal dealers are not nearly as competitive on price as NorCal? For example, you'll see several dealers in NorCal with $79 a month for the SE, drive out $3XXX. In SoCal, the same exact lease is advertised for $129 a month, $2500-ish down, which equates to the same $3XXX drive out.

It was the same for 2015s. 2015 SEL for $129 a month in hayward (NorCal) with $3XXX drive out I think. I have talked to 5+ dealers in SoCal who won't touch that. Most are in the $200 range. They all say the CA programs are the same, so the deals shouldn't be that far off.

Is it simply a matter of more competition in NorCal? I've been baffled by this for months now.

 

[JoulesThief]

I live in So Cal, and bought my 2015 SEL with a MSRP of $36,300 for about $25,200, before tax and license, which includes my $2000 VW Owners Loyalty rebate, on October 6th from Timmons VW. That was a cash deal. Price is determined by how hard you work for it, and how far you'll travel to go get it. VW charges what ever the market will bear, locally.

Being retired, I've flown all over the Western USA buying my VW TDI's over the internet at the very best prices. Obviously, that won't work too well due to the limited range of the e-Golf. VW charges whatever the market will bear. Get a Nor Cal price in an email, and ask a local dealer to match the price. Ask them how the other dealership can do that price, but they can't?

 

[Slomove]

I did buy the 2016 SE two weeks ago. The L1 supplied charger is what it is and given my short commute I could even live with it.

But for versatility reasons mentioned in the other posts I bought and installed the L2 charger (LCS25 by ClipperCreek). I have not run the battery completely down but with 10-20% left I can charge it in 5-6 hours. Since that happens overnight, I don't really care shortening it to 2 or 3 hours.

I really beginning to like that car.

 

[djohan1]

I did buy the 2016 SE two weeks ago. The L1 supplied charger is what it is and given my short commute I could even live with it.

But for versatility reasons mentioned in the other posts I bought and installed the L2 charger (LCS25 by ClipperCreek). I have not run the battery completely down but with 10-20% left I can charge it in 5-6 hours. Since that happens overnight, I don't really care shortening it to 2 or 3 hours.

I really beginning to like that car.

Hi, I have the 2016 SE as well, any particular reason you choose LCS25 (4.8 kWh) instead of LCS20 (3.6 kWh) ? since the charger in SE model anyway limited to 3.6 kW. Any benefit to have the 20Amp in LCS25 compare to 15 Amp in LCS20 as there is $100+ price diff ?

TIA

 

[bizzle]

I'm really confused. Can someone please explain how this works out on an SE model?

I'll get the standard charger. I can purchase a faster charger?

And it's compatible with the super fast chargers on the road?
We have to pick ours up tomorrow and wondering if we will be able to get home (about 200 miles) without having to charge for 10 hours.

 

[miimura]

I'm really confused. Can someone please explain how this works out on an SE model?

I'll get the standard charger. I can purchase a faster charger?

And it's compatible with the super fast chargers on the road?
We have to pick ours up tomorrow and wondering if we will be able to get home (about 200 miles) without having to charge for 10 hours.

The SE model available today only has a 3.6kW (15 amp) on-board charger. It also does not have the inlet for the SAE Combo fast charger.

Covering 200 miles will take:
100 miles at 50mph = 2 hours
Charging to replace 20kWh at 3kW will take 6.6-7.5 hours
100 miles at 50mph = 2 hours.
Total: 10.6-11.5 hours

That's assuming that it is completely full when you leave the dealership. Make sure as soon as you arrive, just in case they need to put it on the charger to top it off.

If you ever need to do trips like that again, I would back out of the deal and either wait for an SE with the Charging Package or get an SEL.

 

[bizzle]

Well, we haven't signed the papers yet. We still need to drive to the dealership in the morning.

When the charging package becomes available is it going to be something that we can install afterwards?
We don't have a choice in the distance...this is one of two closest dealerships.

There is no ability to fast charge the SE?

 

[djohan1]

I'm really confused. Can someone please explain how this works out on an SE model?

I'll get the standard charger. I can purchase a faster charger?

And it's compatible with the super fast chargers on the road?
We have to pick ours up tomorrow and wondering if we will be able to get home (about 200 miles) without having to charge for 10 hours.

The SE model available today only has a 3.6kW (15 amp) on-board charger. It also does not have the inlet for the SAE Combo fast charger.

Covering 200 miles will take:
100 miles at 50mph = 2 hours
Charging to replace 20kWh at 3kW will take 6.6-7.5 hours
100 miles at 50mph = 2 hours.
Total: 10.6-11.5 hours

That's assuming that it is completely full when you leave the dealership. Make sure as soon as you arrive, just in case they need to put it on the charger to top it off.

If you ever need to do trips like that again, I would back out of the deal and either wait for an SE with the Charging Package or get an SEL.

If OP using the standard charger that came with the car, it can only deliver 15A *120V (I don't think it will work with 240V) = 1.8kW.
so the charging time could be double.