I am less than 3 months away from lease end. I was seriously considering keeping the car, where else can I buy a 2y old car that costs me nothing to operate for $13000 ? However, lately I'm noticing range changes and that makes me wonder if I would not be better off returning it. My commute has not changed one iota in 2 years. I used to go home with slightly above 1/2 a "tank" of electrons in summer. Basically exactly 1/2 in winter (using heated seats and heater for a bit). Now, even before it got colder, I get home with 2 notches under 1/2. Systematically. Nothing's changed in my driving habits (I still treat it like a GTI) or routes. Looks like the battery just drains faster. I imagine that is possible as I gave the car zero quarters (driving fast, full charge every day jus tin case I needed the range). Is that a common experience ?
Did you notice battery/range issues over time ?
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JoulesThief
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Deschodt said:
How many miles on your e-Golf ? What made you think you could drive it/treat it like a GTI?
I have 19200 miles on my 2015 SEL. I charge up fully every 3 to 5 days. Range was 129 miles when I got it. It's down to 115 miles now. It's been really cold the past 2 or 3 weeks down here, in So CA. I never use the ancillaries, except maybe the headlights. My range, I hope, will pick up again come late spring, when the temps warm up again. When you average 6 to 6.3 miles per kWh on the battery, you do less recharge cycles, for the amount of miles driven. Lease a car, drive it hard, thrash it, get low miles per kWh, and you're going to beat up not only the battery, but the whole car. Leased cars are no better than rental cars. No pride in ownership.
It's a LiPo battery pack, same as in your smart phone. The batteries don't last forever. They will last longer if you treat the car right, like probably if you owned it, and had pride in ownership, instead of leasing it. One of the many reasons why I would never buy a car off lease. Turn it in and let someone else suffer with the reduced driving range.
Next time you lease a car, ask yourself if you think you'd like to keep it when the lease is up, and see if it affects how you treat and operate the car, in terms of preserve or abuse it, because you just don't care, in the end.
It's not really draining faster, there's just less capacity available though that seems pretty dramatic for 2 years old. To your question, I haven't observed a loss of range. It's surely happened but it's not dramatic enough to notice. My car is a year older than yours. I just extended my 3yr lease 6mos and will probably buy the car at end of term. Like you say, it's hard to beat the package for the price ($11.8k in my case).Deschodt said:
You're charging technique contributed more than your driving techniques. At full power, which can only happen for a few seconds at a time, it's drawing on the battery at about 4.5C (1C is the current the pack can supply for 1 hour), which is not really crazy. Chevy Volts will pull 10C.
I'm curious: did you do timed charging or just plug it in each evening so it spent many hours each night at 100%? Also, where do you live?
FWIW, I delay charge to 90% on days I'm driving to work where it sits at about 75% during the day. My "min charge" is 60%. If I'm not driving it to work the following day, I'll unplug it after it reaches 60%. Basically, I'm a complete nerd about it. I also more-or-less drive it like a slow GTI too.
mfennell said:
Thanks for that... I suspected the full charge contributed just as much - like my phone. Yes, I fully charge the car every night of the work week (not on week ends) because I don't know what I might need to do and I have kids to pick up. Also it's a base car - no fast charging for me - so full charge all the time. It's on timer but it'll only need 3-4 hours to recharge in general and the timer goes from 11PM to 7AM.... When that works - I've had a lot of issues with carnet or the car's charge settings not working and then working again for no reason.
Oh, and Nor-Cal. And it started becoming noticeable before the current cold snap. I don't want to overplay the loss either, but it's 2 small notches, I'd call it 5-10% max depending on usage.
Joulesthief, as far as driving goes, either it is a car or it's not. I treated that lease as a test of that technology. I enjoy the instant torque, and I use it every chance I get because I could not care less about range 99% of the time. Does that damage batteries? If so, odd... I enjoy driving, the car is fun in the city - bit of a dog on the freeways - but you won't catch me hypermiling... I even put ultra sticky tires on the car which cost me a little range too (less than you'd think) because the braking "squeal" irritated me (my car would make a brief tire lock sound when braking on painted lines, even at super low speeds, I imagine the transition between regen and brake disc). As far as treating a lease well, this car is a beater for me, I don't abuse it per se (how can you abuse a car with an electric motor and no gears ?) but I suppose my charging habits are not conducive to long term ownership. If so they should put a big warning label on it or something. Frankly I don't care, it's not like the dealer said I should not charge it fully.
I was just curious but after talking to my colleague about his Tesla's decreasing range, it seems pretty common. So I guess I won't be keeping it. I wish VW made a new one with more power, but so far it's just the Audi GT ($$$) on my radar.
Deschodt said:
How many miles are you at? We bought our '15 SEL used a little over a year ago at ~32k miles. We are at ~44k miles now with no noticeable reduction in range but I think the range is a little less than it was new, just haven't noticed a drop during our ownership.
The only place I have read not to charge to 100% (besides in forum posts) in a recently revised CarNet web page where 95% max charge is suggested. I agree, one would think there would be enough buffer built into the software to allow non-geeks to drive it like a normal car. My wife and I recently took the e-Golf on a weekend getaway to Monterey (not far, we live in Santa Cruz) and I sorta hypermiled (speeds down around 55-60, gentle on the pedal, lots of coasting) on the way down not knowing exactly when or where we would recharge down there. Took slightly under half a "tank." On the trip home I used climate control and stayed with speed of traffic (well over the speed limit on some stretches of Hwy 1, especially in the Marina area) driving it like I would drive an ICE car. The gauge read only slightly more energy used than the trip down. I doubt we will ever see even close to JT's 6mi/kwh. We are generally well over 4 and sometimes in the low 5s which is really efficient compared to many EVs and we drive it pretty much like a normal car (maybe not if that normal car were a GTI or Golf R but it zips around town better than our ~300hp BMW range extender).
Before you give back the car, look at your total outlay on leasing another car. It seems like the days of cheap EV leases are behind us, and an example recently posted was for a 2019 eGolf that required a LOT of money down and still quite a large payment every month.
So if you're going to spend $13k for leasing a new car and end up with...nothing...at the end, vs. buying out your car and being able to drive it for at least the same time frame as your lease, and still have some value left over should you decide to get rid of it at that time. Or if the range still works for you after that time, keep driving it until the battery has become too degraded to be useful.
Now if the car is giving you range anxiety now, then by all means turn it in and get something else. But in my case, my daily needs are far below the car's capabilities, and the battery would have to degrade by 50% or more before it will affect me. Add to that the fact that dealers either had no stock, or were just refusing to budge on a 2017 that had been sitting around for 7 months, led me to simply buy out my present car. Yeah 50% more range, Apple Car Play, a larger infotainment screen, and the ability to set charge timers without CarNet would be nice, but not enough to overcome the added cash outlay.
We're in the middle of a cold snap here in SoCal too, and I think your sudden range loss has far more to do with that than degradation.
So if you're going to spend $13k for leasing a new car and end up with...nothing...at the end, vs. buying out your car and being able to drive it for at least the same time frame as your lease, and still have some value left over should you decide to get rid of it at that time. Or if the range still works for you after that time, keep driving it until the battery has become too degraded to be useful.
Now if the car is giving you range anxiety now, then by all means turn it in and get something else. But in my case, my daily needs are far below the car's capabilities, and the battery would have to degrade by 50% or more before it will affect me. Add to that the fact that dealers either had no stock, or were just refusing to budge on a 2017 that had been sitting around for 7 months, led me to simply buy out my present car. Yeah 50% more range, Apple Car Play, a larger infotainment screen, and the ability to set charge timers without CarNet would be nice, but not enough to overcome the added cash outlay.
We're in the middle of a cold snap here in SoCal too, and I think your sudden range loss has far more to do with that than degradation.
Thanks for the extra answers... Yeah the cold doesn't help but I noticed that before then, mid summer... Again it's not massive, it's just that my driving is *very* consistent in style and destination and it definitely dropped midway through year 2 - car has 14000 mi only. I was wondering if that was expected or a sign of things to come.
Again I drive this thing relatively hard by JouleThief's estimation (max power all the time until freeway speed or city speed limit when possible) because it's fun, and always max charge it just in case (and because nobody said anything at the dealership).
Also let me point out I own the El cheapo one with no fast charging capability, so fast charge was never done !
It's been so good and so cheap ($140/mo lease is less than gas alone on my regular car) I *considered* actually buying it out. But the killer is the combo of the super expensive insurance and that battery drop, with a touch of "I got the low end model with zero frills". (the car costs 50% more to insure than my 911, despite being worth 1/4 of it - no joke - ins.co says it's new tech and expensive to repair)
Think I'll go back to a used gas powered beater for a couple of years and revisit when the gorgeous Audi GT appears or if VW actually pulls the trigger on something nice. I've enjoyed it.
Again I drive this thing relatively hard by JouleThief's estimation (max power all the time until freeway speed or city speed limit when possible) because it's fun, and always max charge it just in case (and because nobody said anything at the dealership).
Also let me point out I own the El cheapo one with no fast charging capability, so fast charge was never done !
It's been so good and so cheap ($140/mo lease is less than gas alone on my regular car) I *considered* actually buying it out. But the killer is the combo of the super expensive insurance and that battery drop, with a touch of "I got the low end model with zero frills". (the car costs 50% more to insure than my 911, despite being worth 1/4 of it - no joke - ins.co says it's new tech and expensive to repair)
Think I'll go back to a used gas powered beater for a couple of years and revisit when the gorgeous Audi GT appears or if VW actually pulls the trigger on something nice. I've enjoyed it.
johnnylingo
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2016 SE, 29 months, 22,000 miles. I'm currently estimating the usable battery at 20.2 kWh, down from its original value of 22 kW. Driving has been mostly highway.
Our car was at around 19kWh usable capacity last time I checked. I was doing a spreadsheet and calculating regularly for a while, but got lazy. That was in the mid-30k miles sometime last year. I have not seen any noticeable change since we bought the car at ~31k miles and we are at ~44k miles now.
I have read in some forum posts that the capacity degradation happens early on and levels off. I think at this point in our car's life it has leveled off since we have not experienced a change during our ownership. We do generally charge to 100% (but try to drive it ASAP after). We try to leave the car around 50% if it sits for any length of time. Have not done a DCFC yet, level 2 only and mostly at home. We still see a usable range between 80-90 miles (around town--city miles, not highway) depending on weather (cold drops range noticeably) driving it like a normal car.
It sounds like we have similar taste in cars. I hear ya about insurance cost being a shocker. Just be glad it isn't a Tesla Model S. I hear tell those are the #1 most expensive to insure car in the US today.
I am just guessing, but I don't think you will see much more reduction in range for a while but that is with my limited experience and a data point of one so really just a hunch.
Looking at used e-Golf prices (which if anything have risen in the past year, but the good supply of the surprise 2019s may change that) $11k is a bargain and I would keep it if it were me and worked for my needs. Sounds like your commute may be in the fringe of "keeper" status but what can you get for $11k these days and you know how your car has done for you.
I have read in some forum posts that the capacity degradation happens early on and levels off. I think at this point in our car's life it has leveled off since we have not experienced a change during our ownership. We do generally charge to 100% (but try to drive it ASAP after). We try to leave the car around 50% if it sits for any length of time. Have not done a DCFC yet, level 2 only and mostly at home. We still see a usable range between 80-90 miles (around town--city miles, not highway) depending on weather (cold drops range noticeably) driving it like a normal car.
It sounds like we have similar taste in cars. I hear ya about insurance cost being a shocker. Just be glad it isn't a Tesla Model S. I hear tell those are the #1 most expensive to insure car in the US today.
I am just guessing, but I don't think you will see much more reduction in range for a while but that is with my limited experience and a data point of one so really just a hunch.
Looking at used e-Golf prices (which if anything have risen in the past year, but the good supply of the surprise 2019s may change that) $11k is a bargain and I would keep it if it were me and worked for my needs. Sounds like your commute may be in the fringe of "keeper" status but what can you get for $11k these days and you know how your car has done for you.
That's lame. I just checked - mine is only about $100/yr more to insure than my old and cheap Volvo V70R (the Volvo does see 50% more miles annually). The 360, at 1/4 the yearly mileage, is about $250 more.Deschodt said:
Come to think of it, the Volvo is nearing the "time to go liability-only" stage of life...
Everything different of course. Different area, probably a different carrier, etc.
cctop
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Deschodt said:
Deschodt, you nailed my feelings exactly.
My 2016 SE lease ends in about a week, and I've flip-flopped about buying it out. (There's a third option of extending the lease 6 months if you call VW Credit directly, but it doesn't make financial sense for me since I'll need to pay for registration, the 36-month service, and a new tire.)
The range meets my needs right now, but not if the battery degrades to 75-80%.
If I had a fast charger I'd seriously consider keeping it. Instead I've decided to return it and go back to gas for a year or two and see what the electric options are then.
I was hoping that by now there'd be a greater selection of long-range vehicles to choose from.
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2015 SEL here, purchased April 2015. 69,4xx miles on the odometer and definitely seeing battery degradation.
The Guess-o-meter has indicated as high as 117 for me in the first and second summer I had the car. The lowest I've seen this winter is 63 on a full charge (winter around -5C). I used to be able to make it to work and back home (54 miles round trip) in cold weather with the low battery warning just barely coming on before I arrive home. Now I don't dare in the cold weather. Of course, I also can no longer pre-heat the car because I lost my access to car-net. Fortunately, my employer installed a level 2 charger so I can drive home on a full charge now. I'd probably have to stop at a level 3 charger on the way home if something prevents me from charging at work. Could really cause problems if I had to pick up a sick kid early from school since that's another 10 miles past my house from work.
I still love the car, but don't know what I'm going to do with in the next year or two when I can only drive it 50 miles in the summer. That's really going to limit where I can drive it since L2/L3 public charging infrastructure is really not developed fully around my parts.
There is no doubt I'll hit the 100,000 mile mark before 10 years pass. I'll probably hit it in about 18 months. What's the magical kWh threshold for 70%? I believe the battery is 24.3 kWh, but I've seen others online saying something about a net limit instead of the advertised limit. Does anyone know what that limit is?
The Guess-o-meter has indicated as high as 117 for me in the first and second summer I had the car. The lowest I've seen this winter is 63 on a full charge (winter around -5C). I used to be able to make it to work and back home (54 miles round trip) in cold weather with the low battery warning just barely coming on before I arrive home. Now I don't dare in the cold weather. Of course, I also can no longer pre-heat the car because I lost my access to car-net. Fortunately, my employer installed a level 2 charger so I can drive home on a full charge now. I'd probably have to stop at a level 3 charger on the way home if something prevents me from charging at work. Could really cause problems if I had to pick up a sick kid early from school since that's another 10 miles past my house from work.
I still love the car, but don't know what I'm going to do with in the next year or two when I can only drive it 50 miles in the summer. That's really going to limit where I can drive it since L2/L3 public charging infrastructure is really not developed fully around my parts.
There is no doubt I'll hit the 100,000 mile mark before 10 years pass. I'll probably hit it in about 18 months. What's the magical kWh threshold for 70%? I believe the battery is 24.3 kWh, but I've seen others online saying something about a net limit instead of the advertised limit. Does anyone know what that limit is?
The GOM range is heavily dependent on driving style and HVAC usage, so your data is not very objective. Might you be able to tell us how many kWh it takes to charge from 10% SoC to 100% SoC? I’m sure your car’s pack has degraded but the GOM won’t help to accurately quantity capacity loss because of all the variables such as ambient temp, tire age, wind speed, driving style, etc.
The VW pack warranty is for 70% NET capacity. This is the usable capacity of your 24.2 kWh pack. New, I believe the pack had about 21.5 kWh usable energy content. You can read in this forum how to calculate usable pack capacity. Also, the pack capacity varies with pack temperature, with less usable energy available at temperatures significantly below 25 C. At -5C the available energy will be much less than at 25C.
The VW pack warranty is for 70% NET capacity. This is the usable capacity of your 24.2 kWh pack. New, I believe the pack had about 21.5 kWh usable energy content. You can read in this forum how to calculate usable pack capacity. Also, the pack capacity varies with pack temperature, with less usable energy available at temperatures significantly below 25 C. At -5C the available energy will be much less than at 25C.
f1geek said:
I would disagree, not with your blanket statement above (indeed range is dependant on all that), but with the objectivity of my data ;-) I'm saying my commute is exactly the same, day over day, season over season, HVAC and driving style wise. I'm not complaining about a drop summer over winter, or slow driving vs fast driving, I'm saying year over year overall my range has decreased in similar circumstances... I also noticed a small hit when switching to tires not made of wood. I'm factoring all that in. It's normal, I get it, I did not expect that much drop though, and it is leading me to returning the car next month vs buying it out because I have no way to tell if this will level off...
I took some pics to illustrate today but this site won't host pics directly so too bad ;-)
This morning, 6AM, 45 outside... Full charge, my car shows just 63 mi range.... Full !
I drove 18.6 mi to work and got there with 53 mi range. So obviously the range # is not an exact science, but still I used to see more, like at least 80 on a full charge... It's not like I autocrossed it last night.
Forgetting the range # which is meaningless, my beef is I get to work with 3/4 tank left exactly - 1/4 gone. I used to get there with exactly one notch more, last year. Same everything. That's 25% loss on that drive (4 little notches of the gauge instead of 3 used, making 1/4 tank - would have been easier with pics). Add that one notch missing on the way home, and if I extend the drive a little to shopping or dropping off a kid, it becomes noticeable to where I get in eco mode before I get home, doing 50-55 miles. That is all I am saying. Noticeable drop all things being equal.
Maybe I should not have charged it fully everyday, but because I might need the full range any given day for an emergency or work, I cannot gamble. if it had 200 mi range then yes I would have considered a 75% charge or whatever... Also, nobody at VW ever recommended not fully charging.
Hey quick unrelated Q: Would you reinstall the ecopia tires before lease return inspection or leave "normal" tires on. Will they care ? I took mine off and stored them because they were too slippery and irritating under braking (chirping all the time). I mean will they object to the car coming back on non-low-rolling resistance tires ?
This morning, 6AM, 45 outside... Full charge, my car shows just 63 mi range.... Full !
I drove 18.6 mi to work and got there with 53 mi range. So obviously the range # is not an exact science, but still I used to see more, like at least 80 on a full charge... It's not like I autocrossed it last night.
Forgetting the range # which is meaningless, my beef is I get to work with 3/4 tank left exactly - 1/4 gone. I used to get there with exactly one notch more, last year. Same everything. That's 25% loss on that drive (4 little notches of the gauge instead of 3 used, making 1/4 tank - would have been easier with pics). Add that one notch missing on the way home, and if I extend the drive a little to shopping or dropping off a kid, it becomes noticeable to where I get in eco mode before I get home, doing 50-55 miles. That is all I am saying. Noticeable drop all things being equal.
Maybe I should not have charged it fully everyday, but because I might need the full range any given day for an emergency or work, I cannot gamble. if it had 200 mi range then yes I would have considered a 75% charge or whatever... Also, nobody at VW ever recommended not fully charging.
Hey quick unrelated Q: Would you reinstall the ecopia tires before lease return inspection or leave "normal" tires on. Will they care ? I took mine off and stored them because they were too slippery and irritating under braking (chirping all the time). I mean will they object to the car coming back on non-low-rolling resistance tires ?
Deschodt, I'm not sure why you won't perform some simple math - calculating the usable battery capacity is far more exact than seat of the pants guesses. There are posts on this forum that explain how to perform the math, and then you will have a real number so you can tell what % capacity your car truly has. And if you perform the calculation repeatedly, you can get a nice graph of battery degradation rate. If your battery has a usable capacity of 20 kWh and you average 3 miles/kWh in the winter, that equates to 60 miles of range. If you average 6 miles per kWh in summer driving with the same usable capacity, that equates to 120 miles of range.
I find it highly unlikely that you will see only 50 miles of range in the summer in a few years, but without a plot of pack capacity as a function of time, it is very hard to accurately predict the pack performance. You will need the math to prove to VW that battery needs to be replaced under warranty. VW won't give you a new pack based on a guess - VW will look at the cold, hard objective data and then decide if the pack meets the warranty limits. Good luck!
I find it highly unlikely that you will see only 50 miles of range in the summer in a few years, but without a plot of pack capacity as a function of time, it is very hard to accurately predict the pack performance. You will need the math to prove to VW that battery needs to be replaced under warranty. VW won't give you a new pack based on a guess - VW will look at the cold, hard objective data and then decide if the pack meets the warranty limits. Good luck!
JoulesThief
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You took off the low rolling resistance tires on your e-Golf. You cut into the range right there. You placed more load on the battery the whole time you had them removed. You discharged the battery deeper before every recharge. You want to play, you gotta pay. That includes the battery, nothing is free.
Suggestion, next time, buy or lease a car that's exactly the way you want it, off of the dealerships lot. Don't tamper with sticky tires. Understand you are not using the car as VW designed it. Your usage is outside the scope of use VW envisioned. They don't have diamond lanes in Germany. VW doesn't design electric cars for diamond lane use, that's something California government concocted to try to control your behavior and influence your car purchases, to their ulterior motives.
I usually have to recharge my 2015 e-Golf every 3 or 4 trips, or every 4 to 6 days. I'm doing 90 to 105 miles on a charge and leaving 8 to 25 miles left before recharging. I drive BLVDs and residential streets. I charge fully every time I recharge in the garage. I run stock tires. I get 6 to 6.3 miles per kwh. If I leave early in the morning for the airport, say 6 am, and it's 35 to 45F out, I see 5.5 to 5.7 miles per kWh. I never run the heater, never heat the seats, I dress appropriately for the weather and temps outside, and don't run extraneous stuff or over tax my battery. Yes, I have lost some range. seems to be about 4-5 miles of range per recharge lost per year, so far, or thereabouts.
Do what you want, maybe emulate the way I drive. But I don't see a VW e-Golf being a good fit for your driving style, technique, or needs. I only see that you are cheap, want high performance, and you're trying to put lipstick on a pig. Trying to make an e-Golf something that it is not.
Suggestion, next time, buy or lease a car that's exactly the way you want it, off of the dealerships lot. Don't tamper with sticky tires. Understand you are not using the car as VW designed it. Your usage is outside the scope of use VW envisioned. They don't have diamond lanes in Germany. VW doesn't design electric cars for diamond lane use, that's something California government concocted to try to control your behavior and influence your car purchases, to their ulterior motives.
I usually have to recharge my 2015 e-Golf every 3 or 4 trips, or every 4 to 6 days. I'm doing 90 to 105 miles on a charge and leaving 8 to 25 miles left before recharging. I drive BLVDs and residential streets. I charge fully every time I recharge in the garage. I run stock tires. I get 6 to 6.3 miles per kwh. If I leave early in the morning for the airport, say 6 am, and it's 35 to 45F out, I see 5.5 to 5.7 miles per kWh. I never run the heater, never heat the seats, I dress appropriately for the weather and temps outside, and don't run extraneous stuff or over tax my battery. Yes, I have lost some range. seems to be about 4-5 miles of range per recharge lost per year, so far, or thereabouts.
Do what you want, maybe emulate the way I drive. But I don't see a VW e-Golf being a good fit for your driving style, technique, or needs. I only see that you are cheap, want high performance, and you're trying to put lipstick on a pig. Trying to make an e-Golf something that it is not.
Just as a data point:
Purchased my 2017 SE new on Feb 1 2018. I live in the SF Bay Area, where the climate is relatively mild and I use the heater and AC sparsely. My commute is 70 miles total per weekday. I am already at 22,xxx miles (within 14 months). I typically L2 charge at my office every weekday, charging to 80% or less. I have charged to 100% maybe 5 times. I have made no mods to the car. I used to get approx 160 miles on the GOM (80 miles at 50%), with the outside temp average mid 60s F. Now I only get 130-140 miles. Seems to be degrading quite quickly.
Purchased my 2017 SE new on Feb 1 2018. I live in the SF Bay Area, where the climate is relatively mild and I use the heater and AC sparsely. My commute is 70 miles total per weekday. I am already at 22,xxx miles (within 14 months). I typically L2 charge at my office every weekday, charging to 80% or less. I have charged to 100% maybe 5 times. I have made no mods to the car. I used to get approx 160 miles on the GOM (80 miles at 50%), with the outside temp average mid 60s F. Now I only get 130-140 miles. Seems to be degrading quite quickly.
miimura
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Without knowing your mi/kWh driving efficiency before and after, your figures are meaningless. It's called a GOM for a reason.bradster said:
